Transparency data
DSIT senior officials’ meetings, October to December 2024
Updated 27 March 2025
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Senior Official's Name | Date | Name of individual or organisation | Purpose of Meeting |
---|---|---|---|
Angela McLean | 2024-10-01 | Localglobe | Regular update call |
Angela McLean | 2024-10-16 | Modern Synthesis | Company visit |
Angela McLean | 2024-10-17 | Imperial College | AI/innovation discussion |
Angela McLean | 2025-10-28 | Royal Academy of Engineering | Regular update call |
Angela McLean | 2024-10-31 | Ditchley | Biotech and health discussion |
Angela McLean | 2024-11-20 | Institute for Government | Future project discussion |
Angela McLean | 2024-12-09 | Royal Society | Regular update call |
Angela McLean | 2024-12-12 | Academy of Medical Sciences | Regular update call |
David Smith | 2024-10-02 | Confederation of British Industry roundtable | To speak on the NTA's role, priorities, current thinking on tech adoption from DSIT, and what he’s keen to hear from business |
David Smith | 2024-10-02 | Telecare Services Association | To speak to technical experts from Telecare Services Association to get a better technical understanding of their issues and solutions to ensure the risk of vulnerable people being cut off from telecare services is avoided. |
David Smith | 2024-10-03 | Heriot-Watt | To discuss perspectives on growth in the UK robotics industry |
David Smith | 2024-10-06 | American Association for the Advancement of Science, African Union Development Agency, University of Tokyo, US National Academy of Sciences, National Centre for Biological Sciences (India) | Panel session on S&T diplomacy |
David Smith | 2024-10-06 | RENKEI, Kyushu University, Tohoku University, Durham University, University of Edinburgh, Newcastle University, University of Southampton, | Discuss challenges and opportunities in furthering UK-Japan research collaboration and researcher mobility, particularly in generating spin outs that can form international innovation partnerships |
David Smith | 2024-10-07 | New Energy and Industrial Technology Development Organisation (NEDO TSC) | To discuss the success of ongoing UKRI Innovate UK-NEDO collaborations and explore what more we can do to collaborate internationally in critical tech areas/green tech |
David Smith | 2024-10-08 | Keihanna Science City | To gain understanding of Japan’s industrial science campus innovation model; how to commercialise across multiple critical tech / start-ups. |
David Smith | 2024-10-09 | UK-Japan Industrial and Innovation Policy Workshop, jointly hosted with the Babbage Policy Forum at the University of Cambridge | UK innovation policies/strategies, and values highlighted to key Japanese stakeholders across government, academia, and industry, to influence an increase in international innovation funding for deep-tech SMEs. |
David Smith | 2024-10-10 | Toshiba | UK strengths demonstrated on quantum, and understand Toshiba’s views on barriers to collaboration with UK quantum companies |
David Smith | 2024-10-11 | Japan Bioindustry Association | To find ways as how to further strengthen ties that would promote UK business in Japan |
David Smith | 2024-10-11 | BioJapan exposition | Delivering keynote speech on domestic and international policies and trends related to biomanufacturing |
David Smith | 2024-10-11 | Asahi Shimbun | Interview to promote the UK’s strengths and ambition for wider science, innovation and technology priorities |
David Smith | 2024-10-16 | Royal Academy of Engineering | Regular catchup meeting |
David Smith | 2024-10-17 | Fflow.io | Discussion on Procurement and IP |
David Smith | 2024-10-17 | University of Salford | An introductory meeting on work around Telecare in the UK |
David Smith | 2024-10-18 | UK Metering Forum (UKMF) Advisory board | To give the NTA perspective on the UKMF Industrial Strategy |
David Smith | 2024-10-21 | Rolls Royce | To identify materials ecosystem gaps and the opportunities for programmes, infrastructure or other interventions that could bridge these gaps. |
David Smith | 2024-10-21 | Johnson Matthey | To identify materials ecosystem gaps and the opportunities for programmes, infrastructure or other interventions that could bridge these gaps. |
David Smith | 2024-10-21 | University of Manchester | To identify materials ecosystem gaps and the opportunities for programmes, infrastructure or other interventions that could bridge these gaps. |
David Smith | 2024-10-21 | High Value Manufacturing Catapult | To identify materials ecosystem gaps and the opportunities for programmes, infrastructure or other interventions that could bridge these gaps. |
David Smith | 2024-10-21 | Campagin for Science and Engineering | To discuss spending review |
David Smith | 2024-10-22 | University of Salford, Sheffield University | To discuss the future of Telecare in the UK |
David Smith | 2024-10-24 | Robotics Growth Partnership | To discuss the RGP strategy consultation, tech adoption, and regulation |
David Smith | 2024-10-24 | University of Salford, Sheffield University | To discuss the future of Telecare in the UK |
David Smith | 2024-10-31 | Institute for Manufacturing | A kick-off meeting for work by IfM on the innovation ecosystem |
David Smith | 2024-10-31 | Catapult network | Preparation discussion ahead of a cross-Catapult CEOs meeting |
David Smith | 2024-10-31 | SMD semiconductor | To understand SMD’s progress on UK partnerships and its plans for future UK-based activity, following HMG activities to connect SMD and UK industry |
David Smith | 2024-11-01 | Catapult network | To discuss alignment of DSIT, IUK and the Catapult Network around the concept of Data Sharing Infrastructure as it supports the Industrial Strategy |
David Smith | 2024-11-04 | Open Innovation | To discuss OI's proposal for an Innovation Accelerator Programme |
David Smith | 2024-11-04 | Digital Catapult | Pre-brief: session for Catapulting Growth conference |
David Smith | 2024-11-05 | Q-CTRL | Provided opening remarks in roundtable on Government approach to Quantum |
David Smith | 2024-11-05 | Quantum Brilliance | Not set |
David Smith | 2024-11-05 | EQUS Australian Research Council Centre of Excellence for Engineered Quantum Systems | Not set |
David Smith | 2024-11-05 | VeriQuantix | Not set |
David Smith | 2024-11-05 | Analog Quantum Circuits | Not set |
David Smith | 2024-11-05 | Eigensystems | Not set |
David Smith | 2024-11-05 | Iceberg Quantum | Not set |
David Smith | 2024-11-05 | Australian Trade and Investment Commission Austrade | Not set |
David Smith | 2024-11-05 | Australian Trade and Investment Commission Austrade | Not set |
David Smith | 2024-11-05 | Qunasys | Not set |
David Smith | 2024-11-05 | JIJ | Not set |
David Smith | 2024-11-05 | Murata | Not set |
David Smith | 2024-11-05 | Sumintomo Corporation | Not set |
David Smith | 2024-11-05 | Fujitsu | Not set |
David Smith | 2024-11-05 | Sony Ventures | Not set |
David Smith | 2024-11-05 | Softbank | Not set |
David Smith | 2024-11-05 | Hitachi | Not set |
David Smith | 2024-11-05 | NTT | Not set |
David Smith | 2024-11-05 | Taiwania Capital | Not set |
David Smith | 2024-11-05 | SK Telecom | Not set |
David Smith | 2024-11-05 | Qunova Computing Inc. | Not set |
David Smith | 2024-11-05 | CBI | To discuss the Tech Adoption Review, and work on procurement |
David Smith | 2024-11-06 | Strategy international | To discuss the Tech Adoption Review, to explore how Strategy International could work with HMG |
David Smith | 2024-11-07 | FutureDotNow | To discuss the economic impact of the digital skills gap and the importance of data around this issue |
David Smith | 2024-11-07 | Catapult network | Panel event at Catapulting Growth conference |
David Smith | 2024-11-08 | UK National Quantum Technologies Showcase | Opening keynote speech |
David Smith | 2024-11-13 | Shearwater Global Dinner | Speech on priorities as NTA |
David Smith | 2024-11-14 | BioIndustry Association | To find out how BIA companies are contributing to the health and wealth of the nation and discuss shared policy interests |
David Smith | 2024-11-18 | Imperial College | To talk about possible commission work with the Centre for Sectoral Economic Performance |
David Smith | 2024-11-18 | PA Consulting | To discuss PA's interim findings for DSIT's UK IDA survey |
David Smith | 2024-11-18 | Tech Convergence Workshop | To discuss and identify areas of technology convergence that could deliver significant UK benefit with senior stakeholders working in academic and industrial R&D. |
David Smith | 2024-11-19 | Tech Convergence Workshop | To discuss and identify areas of technology convergence that could deliver significant UK benefit with senior stakeholders working in academic and industrial R&D. |
David Smith | 2024-11-20 | Campaign for Science and Engineering | Discussion related to industrial strategy and spending review |
David Smith | 2024-11-21 | UCL | Discussion on tech adoption |
David Smith | 2024-11-25 | Sheffield University | To discuss ideas around the heterogenous integration of semiconductors |
David Smith | 2024-11-26 | AMD | Introductory meeting to clarify the role of the NTA to AMD |
David Smith | 2024-11-27 | British Business Bank | Introductory meeting to discuss growth funding/investment in the UK S&T sector |
David Smith | 2024-11-27 | Sheffield University | To discuss semiconductor technology priorities to support industrial strategy, spending prioritisation and the new UK Semiconductor Centre |
David Smith | 2024-11-28 | Queen's University Belfast | To discuss how QUB can best support with the National Semiconductor Strategy (NSS), and DSIT’s efforts in this space |
David Smith | 2024-11-28 | Henry Royce Institute | To discuss the Royce's strategy development, in their work on materials science |
David Smith | 2024-12-02 | RAE | Regular catchup |
David Smith | 2024-12-04 | Royal Academy of Engineering | Attending RAE's Strategy Dinner, discussing the role and direction of the Academy |
David Smith | 2024-12-17 | PharosAI | To discuss their funding requirements as an applicant of the Research Ventures Catalyst programme |
David Smith | 2024-12-17 | CBI, MAKE UK, BIA, ABPI, RIBA, ACCA Global, Alders Gate Group, IOD, Energy UK | Academic roundtable discussing Tech Adoption |
David Smith | 2024-12-18 | BIND | To discuss their funding requirements as an applicant of the Research Ventures Catalyst programme |
David Smith | 2024-12-18 | MEMetic | To discuss their funding requirements as an applicant of the Research Ventures Catalyst programme |
David Smith | 2024-12-18 | Institute for Manufacturing | A progress review meeting on IfM's analysis and mapping of the innovation ecosystem for DSIT |
David Smith | 2024-12-18 | Xero, Sage, IBM, Google, Salesforce, Microsoft, BT | Industry roundtable discussing Tech Adoption |
David Smith | 2024-12-19 | Digital Catapult | Regular catchup discussing the Tech Adoption Review and working with arm's length bodies |
Emily Middleton | 2024-10-01 | Renaissance Philanthropy | Sharing perspectives on digital transformation and reform |
Emily Middleton | 2024-10-04 | British Computer Society | Discussion on public sector computer science professional body recommendations |
Emily Middleton | 2024-10-09 | Public Digital | Chat on what did and didn't work on digital transformation in a former role in the Cabinet Office |
Emily Middleton | 2024-10-09 | Tony Blair Institute for Global Change | Sharing perspectives on digital transformation and reform |
Emily Middleton | 2024-10-21 | Good Things Foundation | Discussion on building on the National Digital Inclusion Network to provide community-based places for people to get help with public services and exploring this as a cross-over of digital inclusion and digital services |
Emily Middleton | 2024-10-21 | Deloitte | Conversation on reflections and expectations in preparation for a colleague's Transition Lab with DSIT |
Emily Middleton | 2024-10-22 | Reform | Roundtable hosted by Reform on 'Designing the digital centre: the future of government digital services' |
Emily Middleton | 2024-10-28 | Flint Global | Pre-brief to a breakfast briefing with Flint |
Emily Middleton | 2024-10-30 | Flint Global | Breakfast Briefing hosted by Flint Global on the Digital Centre Design Project |
Emily Middleton | 2024-10-30 | Office for National Statistics | Sharing thoughts on how to deliver the vision for the new digital centre of government and receiving feedback on the Digital Centre's 6 point plan |
Emily Middleton | 2024-11-05 | Nesta | Discussions on secondment appointment to DSIT |
Emily Middleton | 2024-11-12 | TechUK | Industry roundtable hosted by TechUK on the Digital Centre of Government |
Emily Middleton | 2024-11-14 | The British Academy | Roundtable hosted by the British Academy on the Digital Centre of Government |
Emily Middleton | 2024-11-19 | Service Now | Chat on what did and didn't work on digital transformation in a former role in the Cabinet Office |
Emily Middleton | 2024-11-19 | Introductory chat on AI opportunities and technology in Government | |
Emily Middleton | 2024-11-26 | Google Cloud UK Public Sector Summit exploring how AI is being applied to improve lives and drive positive change across the UK | |
Emily Middleton | 2024-11-27 | Good Things Foundation | Sharing thoughts on DSIT's digital public services vision, especially from the perspective of how to design for greater inclusion, and how to use public services to promote greater digital inclusion over time |
Emily Middleton | 2024-11-27 | EY | Visit to the EY AI lab and discussions on digital transformation |
Emily Middleton | 2024-11-28 | Manchester Combined Authority | Workshop with chief digital officers from Manchester councils, NHS and transport authority, hosted by the Manchester Combined Authority, on digital, data and tech collaboration between local and central government |
Emily Middleton | 2024-11-29 | University of Manchester, Turing Innovation Catalyst | Visit to the University of Manchester and roundtable with local digital and tech professionals to discuss the new digital centre and their ambitions for digital public services |
Emily Middleton | 2024-12-11 | Oracle | Meeting with Minister Clark on Oracle capabilities in relation to AI and Gen AI adoption |
Emily Middleton | 2024-12-12 | The Alan Turing Institute | Discussions on the Digital Centre of Government and ATI's research on how to build progressive public services with data science and AI |
Emily Middleton | 2024-12-12 | Anthropic | Discussions on Anthropic's work on agentic AI and its potential in public services |
Emily Middleton | 2024-12-17 | We Are AMS / Baringa | Digital Centre Design org design scoping |
Emily Middleton | 2024-12-17 | We Are AMS / Q5 Partners | Digital Centre Design org design scoping |
Emily Middleton | 2024-12-18 | Careful Industries | Visit to the White Chapel building to discuss provisional findings of the digital centre design project and seek feedback on its approach to inclusivity and equity in digital public services |
Emran Mian | 2024-10-01 | Blackstone | Stakeholder engagement |
Emran Mian | 2024-10-03 | Lenovo | Stakeholder engagement |
Emran Mian | 2024-10-07 | Wikimedia | Stakeholder engagement |
Emran Mian | 2024-10-08 | Universities UK | Stakeholder engagement |
Emran Mian | 2024-10-10 | General Catalyst | Meeting to discuss UK tech policy developments |
Emran Mian | 2024-10-14 | University of Southampton | Computer scientist Uni of Southampton |
Emran Mian | 2024-10-14 | Deepmind | Stakeholder engagement |
Emran Mian | 2024-10-21 | Microsoft | UK Government Leaders Event Satya Nadella (Microsoft CEO & Chairman) speaking on themes of partnership, AI innovation across Public Sector, and opportunities Microsoft shared its innovation lineup and expectations from the partnership |
Emran Mian | 2024-10-31 | Universities UK | Stakeholder engagement |
Emran Mian | 2024-11-07 | Founders Forum | Stakeholder engagement |
Emran Mian | 2024-11-08 | Vodafone | Stakeholder engagement |
Emran Mian | 2024-11-08 | Stakeholder engagement | |
Emran Mian | 2024-11-11 | Zoom | Dinner hosted by Emran Mian and Zoom |
Emran Mian | 2024-11-13 | RELX | Meeting to discuss copyright and AI |
Emran Mian | 2024-11-21 | Stakeholder engagement | |
Emran Mian | 2024-11-21 | KPMG | Discussion on digital inclusion |
Emran Mian | 2024-11-22 | Microsoft | Stakeholder engagement |
Emran Mian | 2024-11-22 | Nominet | Stakeholder engagement |
Emran Mian | 2024-11-22 | Apple | Stakeholder engagement |
Emran Mian | 2024-12-02 | Amazon | Stakeholder engagement |
Emran Mian | 2024-12-02 | Intel | Stakeholder engagement |
Emran Mian | 2024-12-06 | REWIRE, the semiconductor Innovation and Knowledge research Centre | Led by the University of Bristol, this showcase event highlighted work in Net Zero climate ambitions Emran spoke on the UK Government's vision for the semiconductor sector |
Emran Mian | 2024-12-06 | Workday | Discussion on digital inclusion |
Emran Mian | 2024-12-09 | PwC | Discussion on digital inclusion |
Emran Mian | 2024-12-10 | Waymo | Stakeholder engagement |
Emran Mian | 2024-12-17 | Google, TechUK, eBay, Amazon, Wikimedia, Apple, Snapchat, Meta. | Stakeholder engagement |
Emran Mian | 2024-12-18 | EU DG Connect | Stakeholder engagement |
Emran Mian | 2024-12-18 | Broadcom | Stakeholder engagement |
Emran Mian | 2024-12-19 | International Institute for Strategic Studies | Stakeholder engagement |
Freya Guinness | 2024-10-22 | Deloitte | Deloitte interviewed Freya as a stakeholder as part of a 'Transition Lab' training programme for one of her direct reports. |
Freya Guinness | 2024-11-04 | Q5 Partners | Introductory meeting for facilitation of SLT away day |
Freya Guinness | 2024-11-15 | Q5 Partners | Planning meeting for facilitation of SLT away day |
Freya Guinness | 2024-11-20 | Q5 Partners | Planning meeting for facilitation of SLT away day |
Freya Guinness | 2024-11-27 | Q5 Partners | Facilitation of SLT away day |
Freya Guinness | 2024-12-09 | Q5 Partners | Follow on from SLT away day |
Joanna Davinson | Nil Return | Nil Return | Nil return |
Sarah Munby | 2024-10-11 | Adam Bonnifield | Discussing AI policy with external stakeholder. recommended by GCDO |
Sarah Munby | 2024-10-14 | International Investment Summit | Attendence at govt summit with DSIT's delegation. |
Sarah Munby | 2024-11-12 | Trade Unions update | Briefing trade unions on GDS announcement |
Sarah Munby | 2024-11-19 | Digital leaders event | Bringing together digital leaders from across whitehall to discuss the future of the digital profession |
Sarah Munby | 2024-11-27 | Airbus | Cross-government meeting with Airbus to hear update on company's strategy |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-10-03 | BT | General catch up |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-10-07 | PlayStation | General catch up |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-10-07 | NESO | Data Centres and Energy- Session with NESO |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-10-10 | Academic | Discussion on presentation to DI colleagues |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-10-10 | Ofcom | Regularly occuring Ofcom Senior Forum meeting. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-10-10 | Ofcom | Discussion on Networks & Communications |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-10-14 | Deloitte | Catch up on Deloitte research |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-10-14 | Digital Catapult | Discusion on the Digital Catapult’s future strategy and plans as well as UKTIN |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-10-16 | Netcracker | Half-day workshop between Netcracker and the TSR team within DI. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-10-16 | UKTIN | Update on Spending Review discussions |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-10-17 | IX Wireless | IX Wireless’ deployment strategy |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-10-21 | Mobile UK, Misc Telecoms Representatives | Mobile UK's Autumn Parliamentary Reception |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-10-24 | Chat with representatives from Google on Data Centres. Google reached out off the back of CNI designation | |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-10-25 | NPL | Catch up with NPL team on the UKTL project. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-10-28 | Ericsson | Pre-meeting to discuss Ericsson’s role in delivering the government’s five missions? |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-10-29 | Durham University, External Reviewer; Defence Science & Technology Adviser; Assistant Head of Strategy DST | Strategic Defence Review |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-10-29 | Ericsson | Meeting with SoS to discuss Ericsson’s role in delivering the government’s five missions |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-11-04 | Space X | Introductory meeting between SpaceX and DI teams to talk through satellites and VHTR. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-11-06 | Deloitte | General catch up meeting with Government & Infrastructure Partner |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-11-06 | CityFibre | Meeting to discuss CityFibre’s re-financing situation. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-11-08 | Ofcom | Regular catch-up |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-11-08 | MIC Japan | 1. GCOT - progress to date and expansion plans |
Not set | Not set | Not set | 2. UK and Japan approaches to telecoms diversification - overview from each side |
Not set | Not set | Not set | 3. Opportunities for collaboration and identifying areas for a more in depth discussion in Japan - it would be good to touch on these with DDG Mr Ikeda and Catherine from the UK side, with a view to expanding on it in depth in Japan. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-11-08 | Vodafone | Quarterly update meeting |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-11-08 | Vodafone | Meeting with Vodafone on fraud |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-11-08 | VMO2 | Meeting with VMO2 on fraud |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-11-11 | BT | Meeting with BT on fraud |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-11-11 | BT | Discussion on PSTN, mobile markets and digital inclusion |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-11-13 | Akamai Technologies | Introductory meeting |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-11-18 | BT Group; VMO2; Vodafone; KCOM; TechUK; Ofcom; Mobile UK | PSTN Conference hosted by TechUk with Minister Bryant on PSTN. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-11-19 | Clarity Global; ISPA | Discussion on Mansion House speech previous week which referenced telecoms fraud |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-11-22 | Vodafone | Discussion on 5GSA. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-11-22 | Ofcom | General catch up |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-11-28 | Ofcom | Meeting with Ofcom representatives to discuss their work on the Telecoms Access Review. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-11-29 | ISPA; Voneus | Meeting with the ISPA on digital inclusion. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-11-29 | Openreach | Meeting with OpenReach on digital inclusion. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-11-29 | BT | Meeting with BT on digital inclusion. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-11-29 | VMO2 | Meeting with VMO2 on digital inclusion. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-11-29 | Three | Meeting with Three on digital inclusion. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-11-29 | TalkTalk | Meeting with TalkTalk on digital inclusion. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-12-02 | Sky | Meeting with Sky on digital inclusion. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-12-02 | Ofcom | Official attendee to this meeting between Minister Bryant and Ofcom. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-12-03 | Pinsent Masons | Meeting to discuss TNS legal positions. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-12-05 | Vodafone | Update meeting with Vodafone following CMA publishing merger decisions. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-12-06 | Vodafone | Meeting with Vodafone on digital inclusion. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-12-06 | Digital Catapult | Update on Digital Catapult. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-12-09 | Amazon | Time with AWS representatives to discuss Project Kuiper. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-12-10 | Ofcom | Meeting with Ofcom representatives to discuss the Government's vision for Data Centres. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-12-11 | Imperial College | Disussion on Imperial College sector review to inform a sector strategy for telecoms. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-12-12 | BT | Discusison on future telecoms visions. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-12-12 | BT | Bi-lateral meeting with BT to discuss their plans for non-voluntary migrations. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-12-12 | VMO2 | Bi-lateral meeting with VMO2 to discuss their plans for non-voluntary migrations. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-12-17 | Ofcom | Time with Ofcom representatives to discuss feedback on SSP. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-12-17 | Ofcom | Regular quarterly meeting between BDUK and Ofcom. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-12-18 | Digital Catapult | Updates on SONIC and UKTIN funding. |
Sarah Connolly | 2024-12-18 | Mobile UK; Cornerstone Network | General catch-up with representatives from Mobile UK and the Cornerstone Network. |
Tim Sparrow | Nil Return | Nil Return | Nil return |